<Why must i cry>

This system works for normal/hc but not for a progressing mythic team since items is BiS and cannot be any better then in Mythic.
As an example to what I mean with the DKP system and why I think its not working out for us in mythic progression, at Fel Lord Zakuun the 2handed weapon (Hellrender) if this item would drop as mythic warforged & socket, what could happen with the dkp system is that the item might go to a paladin/warrior even though its not their BiS item just because they in this case might have had more dkp then a DK wich this item is BiS for.


So how does EPGP and Loot Council work some of you might say, well they're both pretty equal they're built around the same purpose. For a core team to get gear fair and square. What you do is basicly everyone in the core group makes a BiS list for their class/specc. If you've got a couple of different trinkets or weapons that you need for sertain fights then you add them in. So what happens if an item drops, well EPGP works this way, you've got one Loot Master, that will see what everyone pressed on the item, and you as a Raider would get a button to press either ''Mainspec'' ''Minor Upgrade'' ''Offspec'' ''Greed'' & ''Pass'' and you can also add a note to the item. Then the way this works is you earn GP wich is another type of currency as DKP, but the difference with this system is that you would probably not be able to take a ring thats mythic warforged even tho its BiS for you since there might be someone else that its BiS for but they in this case only had the HC version of that ring and you had it as Mythic already. basicly what it does it benefiting the whole raid team the most. 
Same goes for Loot council, only differance is that you don't have a currency, you basicly have class masters. These class masters know whats BiS for every their class and will in between all of the people that this Item is BiS for choose who it's the biggest upgrade for. You still make a BiS list for every class/spec tho because it makes things much smoother and faster with the loot and that also makes it fair for everyone.


Another thing I'd like to add is Heroic, some people might still get some upgrades from the sunday Heroics, but wouldn't it be better for those people to either pug it wich is pretty easy (you could as an example just pug that sertain boss you need), and stop gearing up new people each week since its pretty darn rare that they stick around for mythic progression. And I mean we have a pretty big Mythic team already so that might have something to add to why they don't stick around. Some people might be exeptions for gearing a new character as an example im bringing up Sif's druid. He was ''forced'' to go Boomy since we got another tank. I myself didn't mind gearing him up since he's been around for a very, very long time and will most likley stay raiding with us, but these randoms we see every week getting boosted HC archimonde taking gear from (Mains) in Heroic its just not fair. In my opinion EPGP or Loot Council would solve these problems in no time.
I know that if we would decline the Heoric runs on sundays a lot of people would be happy since most of us are joining them just to get DKP that they can't really spend in  Heroic since the randoms that we're bringing every single time goes all in on the items, and this makes it so that a lot of people doesn't want to spend dkp in Heroics because then they wont get any gear in Mythic. 
Instead we could have sundays as a Achivement day, BRF, Highmaul or something. Make sundays a more flexible day where we can choose what to do, and no one is requiered to be there.

If we would make the decision to change loot system we need to go over when we will transition over to the new loot system.  If we do change the loot system we might decide to try it out for a couple of weeks just to see how it works and if we really do like it.  We might come to the conclusion that this system wasn't the right thing for us or the other way around, and we also might see things that we could improve with the system we change to or our current lootsystem ''DKP''.

I would like for everyone to join this discussion, even though what I would prefer the most is to have a discussion over this issue in mumble. I'm not implying that written opinions doesn't matter as much, but I know there's a lot of people that has a lot of different opinions and its really hard to get everything down on papper.
I just wanted to say that I started this thread because I've been thinking of leaving the guild for different reasons for a short period, but I've come to the conclusion to stay and try to see other people's opinions about this so called ''issue''.  And I do hope people will see that I've taken my time to think this over and that you respond to my thread, I'd really love to see your opinions.
                        

Thanks Yinx for sharing your concerns about the loot system. It would be nice to see more mythic raiders be open with their opinions, so please add your thoughts to this thread.

First i'd like to explain why i find loot distribution is a big pain. I've (and i don't doubt you have too) tried many loot systems. Nowhere are people happy with the system. There are always someone unhappy about why they didn't get loot. It is very normal for a player to want something directly rewarding (such as receiving loot or killing a boss they havent killed before) every raid. If you don't get anything you will feel down and start to see wrongs in why other people got something when you didn't. This is why changing loot system doesn't doo much for the loot distribution in itself. You have to look at other benefits of using the system.

We need to compare benefits with systems and see which would be most beneficial towards to big goal (mythic progress). I ask everyone here to think what a loot system does good AND bad, and post your results in here.

With your Loot Council system, as you explained it, i can see the benefits of items going to the correct classes. I can also see the benefits of the total dps/hps/whatever increasing for the good of the group as an entity.

And negatives; this text will be longer because i want to explain them, since you already explained the positives in your post. Negatives that i see are people who are geared early will then come carry other people who don't have any gear because they have better items. When you describe your system it feels like you think of it as a utopia where 20 players are raiding every raid and noone ever quits or gets sick or have to cancel the raid. In reality people quit and we need to bring in new players to take their spots. How fun would this be? I could imagine not very fun, since you would most likely feel just as much angry about "carrying" someone on their first mythic raid and giving him the WF+socket item (that would also be quite an upgrade for yourself), because you cannot know he will keep raiding mythic. Another problem i see is that the regular raiders will favor eachother when it comes to "counceling" loot, this problem alone would already make it a broken system. I am also sure people will have opinions why they did not receive the item and be very upset about this, which sucks to have during raids. This would especially be true if the person felt like he is systematically frozen out from getting loot.

Before i give my subjective opinions about our current DKP system i need to do some history. We've been doing guild raids with this guild every week (with extremely few exceptions) for over a year now. The biggest problem has been attendance. We have tried punishing not showing up for raids, this doesn't work well. Players do not get paid to come to raids nor do they have any contract. If someone chooses they don't wanna raid tonight then they just don't have any reason to show up. Other players who actually DO show up are affected by this, since raid will be crap with less core raiders available for the evening. So we thought we wanted to try rewarding rather than punishing. DKP came to mind, we could reward points as attendance. We discussed it for many, many weeks. Now we also thought this would solve another big problem, people who attend raids will get more loot than people who dont attend raids as regularly.

To evaluate the DKP system so far i can think of some pros and cons. Good things first. People actually do need to raid regularly to have any chance on gear, after all little points => little gear. Now this is not entirely true because there are different ways to spend points. You can either get an item you want early before someone else, by spending points, and not getting very many items in the start, or you can save some dkp in the early tier and get more items a little bit later in when those who spend early are down on points, or you can bottom feed and take items for 5dkp when everyone else who need them already got them. Rewarding attendance seem to work, this is the only system that actually make people come help out on the previous difficulty level. It is easy to say that you'd like to help but when it comes down to it very few will show up if they don't get anything for it (yes, we learned this the hard way). Without getting new players into the raid team we'll end up having to recruit already "good" raiders from other guilds or from disbanded guilds. The former are usually worthless since they are guild hoppers and 99% have a very bad attitudes or don't care about anything serious. I'd like to think that everyone have been in guilds before and seen this already how stupid that is. Those who come from disbanded guilds might be very good people and good raiders, but the problem here is that guilds disband during certain moments in the wow cycle, so the supply is not very good and very much irregular. This means we cannot rely on this and thus we have to "carry" people into the team, for our own benefits.

And there are for sure several things i do not like with DKP. First off it takes alot of time to do the loot, just like loot council would, even more time if we have arguments (goes for both systems). To minimize frustration doing the loot we need to have some rules and avoid having some rules. For example, if we would forbid "baiting" it would be hard to detect and validate if it was infact a bait. This would create long discussions and alot of frustration so therefore we simply allow "baiting". Not much to discuss. BUT baiting is still a bad thing with DKP. People earned their points by spending time from their life, so why waste peoples dkp for fun? STUPID! Another big thing is what yinx already explained is that people bid for minor upgrades that could go to someone else where the item would benefit the whole group more. This is also very hard and i have no solution for it. If we were to discuss every item we would spend our raid nights on 60% loot discussion and 40% raiding. Other things i dislike with dkp is the overhead of tracking the dkp. It would be way faster if we did personal loot always ;)

So to summarize: Loot council may work (will have to try and evaluate) IF we have a fixed 20 man group of raiders who attend every raid night. If players quit we're fucked if we don't always keep investing in our might-eventually-be raiders.

Please do follow up with more pros and cons for each system, or suggest another system where you account for the previously stated pros and cons. This goes for everyone who are unhappy with the current loot system.
                        

Maybe im a scrub that doesn't fully understand the new loot systems your describing, but I can't see whats wrong with DKP, people get rewarded, every1 will get the items they want eventually, BIS whatever. In a few months we will probably have mythic on farm too which will make things even eaasier.

I get the BIS lists and stuff, but with ilvl upgrades our team has the gear to flaw mythic with the current gear we have now, it's just about the tactics we gotta learn, not loot.

If we had the raid consistent for mythic like yesterdays run then yeah I can see the new loot systems working but people never have 100% attendance even core raiders miss certain raids for this reason or that.

I'm literally sat on the fence with what Yinx has said, It might work, changing the loot system I really just can't see the point in it. But why not, give it a try, see if its better? We can always go back or stay on yinxs idea if it works/every1 likes it.

EDIT: Fully agree we should stop heroic.
                        

Hi!
First of all, I would like to raise the issue of: We should be focusing on downing Archimonde mythic as a long term goal.
  The best way of doing this is to optimise the efficiency of the group as a whole, obviously. How do we do that? By giving the most optimal items to the most optimal characters, cause archi mythic is no joke, every optimised (theoretically full bis) raider in the group will help alot. I don't think anyone disagrees with this, and if they do I would very much like an explanation to why.
  This is why DKP is not a good system for getting BIS for every raider as fast as possible. It awards players with better items based on their attendance in mythic AND heroic. Don't get me wrong, attendance is a good thing, when it comes to progression, but how the system works now is that the people that come to heroic clears can get MORE DKP than the ones only comming to progression raids(like myself). The reason for that I can't attend to most HC raids is that raiding 4 times a week cannot co-inside with studies, work and most of all girlfriend! This leads to me not having enough DKP to spend in mythic for BiS items because I get 270 less DKP each week from heroic. I can personally accept that, but it's not good for the guild and not for the core raid team.
                        

To answer your negatives about loot Council Quh I'd like to say if we would decide to stop raiding Heroic on sundays and not use DKP this issue about the WF+Socket item wouldn't be a problem. Lets say we had a 350k hp Rogue that joined us for gearing up in a mythic raid because we were short on people and this item dropped, loot council would probably not give this rogue the item if no one needs it ofc, but DKP might give him the chance to take this item from a core raider since the core raiders might have spent DKP on a earlier item and this rogue might sit on 200-300 DKP and then takes a BiS mythic item from a core raider. This doesn't feel fair giving a Rogue a mythic item that someone else needs and deserves more, since in this case the Rogue still needs upgrades from normal/hc/mythic and with loot council this item would go fair and square to a core raider instead, since the core raider would benefit more from the item. even though its not a bigger Ilvl upgrade for the core raider but he will most likely attend to more raids. And if a new raider joined and had gear like Albinomonk this doesn't apply to him because he already have good gear for mythic and progress.

Another thing is that why do we even recruit people that needs normal/hc/mythic gear when we can recruit raiders that has some decent gear like Albinomonk for an example. This would make things easier for us and we wouldn't need to carry the shit out of people in Mythic runs and feel bad for giving the low geared people gear in case they wouldn't stay.

To answer your thing about your subjective opinions about DKP I would say that those problems would dissapear with EPGP or Loot Council. We already have enough people for mythic raids don't we? Imagine if we removed the sunday raid wich almost forces people to come to the raid atm since of DKP cause otherwise you'll have a way lower chance of getting mythic gear. If the sunday raid would get removed a lot of people would have that day to spend with someone else or something else, I know a lot of people has GF's and I mean common spending more time with the raid team then their GF's that just makes things complicated. So my big picture here is that, 3 days of raiding would probably make people more flexible to join more mythic raids, because atm people rather attend to the Heroic run on the sundays because that's where you get the DKP at. I know this adds to some people but not everyone ofc, because not everyone can attend to 4 days of raiding.

And to add one last thing on what you said with the DKP system about people taking minor upgrades even though it would benefit way more to someone else and the whole raiding team for that matter. You said you didn't know how to solve this issue. Pretty simple in my mind if every raider would make a BiS list for their class they wouldn't be able to take those items of someone else that it's BiS for.
                        

Issue number two: If we were to use the "loot council" system it would operate under the assumption that everyone in the raid wants the gear to go to the right person (the person who benefits from the stats the most). This would also mean that people would have to eliminate their greed and not get mad about not getting an item. If personal favorisation (as Quh mentioned could become a problem) would occur, everyone would notice and then we would have a discussion about it. But to be honest, since we all agree with having the best items go to the bis player this would never happend anyway.
                        

Last issue: We dont need items from HC anymore, dont force people to boost others by having DKP. Even if we keep DKP system, DKP should not be given in HC raids anymore, or have seperate DKP for HC and mythic.
                        

I'm curious, if you have raided for 10 weeks or more and you got very good gear, and every week or so we need to bring in a new person since people (like yourself) do not raid 100% attendance. Does this mean you would be OK with never getting any upgrades? We had this problem before and we had even more whining than we have now with this system. Core raiders hated so much when new raiders get the gear, after the core raider himself have not been getting upgrades for forever.

The only problem you are mentioning about DKP is that you cannot attend sundays. But that is an exception for you right? That's like saying "i can't, so then nobody else should get to either"? The only reason we give DKP in heroic is for MYTHIC players to come help out on heroic, not neccessarily to have them get upgrades there! Bur rather spend their dkp in MYTHIC. So when we are inside mythic and we get loot from bosses, those who actively help out more will have higher chance on loot.

And regarding HC runs, i've been mentioning for a month now that we'll stop HC raids eventually, just like we stopped normal runs. This is not very easy, because once we stop HC runs we need 20 core raiders with a ROTATION which means everyone has to stay out some nights of the week to let other people join. I'm not sure everyone would be OK with that, since we cannot have it on schedule either, but would rather have people show up and then tell who will not get a spot at raid start. The ALTERNATIVE is to keep backups for Mythic and keep these in heroic runs until there is a spot free for mythic. This is what we are doing now and until we have 20 people with 100% attendance (even you veiola) we need to keep doing heroic.

Also mythic progression have been the goal since day one. You just don't jump there. I hope all have experience enough (in life or in wow even) to know that you cannot do that. DKP is a means towards more regular attendance, which is the most important thing to build a good group, much more than getting some extra upgrades for core raiders.
                        

As quoted by Storme
Last issue: We dont need items from HC anymore, dont force people to boost others by having DKP. Even if we keep DKP system, DKP should not be given in HC raids anymore, or have seperate DKP for HC and mythic.

Can you define "We"?
It sounds like when you say We you mean some selected people from the core group?

Because how i define "We" would be the whole team and this includes all future mythic raiders too, and they do need gear for sure, but more than that they need to get into raiding WITH the core team. We can only bring a fixed amount of people to mythic.

Like i said in my previous post, this would mean that we let you stay out some weeks and have another tank gear who will get all gear since he has the worst gear and would benefit most from getting the loot (loot council?), FOR EXAMPLE. I like the alternative better to have people grab spots as they become available.
                        

I dont have the exact data, but the only time I was not present for progression (mythic) was one thursday. The only time I am not present is sundays (HC boost runs) to spend time with my girlfriend. So I dont understand what you mean by me not having "not 100% attendance".
                        

Because in my scenario, we would not raid heroic, so me not attending to it wouldn't be relevant
                        

As quoted by wallstrom2

Another thing is that why do we even recruit people that needs normal/hc/mythic gear when we can recruit raiders that has some decent gear like Albinomonk for an example. This would make things easier for us and we wouldn't need to carry the shit out of people in Mythic runs and feel bad for giving the low geared people gear in case they wouldn't stay.

We do not recruit people. We havent recruited anyone for along time since we had the last off-period. We just started recruiting last week and we're only looking for raiders with a little mythic experience and already good geared. As you can see this is not as easy as it sounds. We do not want to guild poach, because that's always a very bad approach. This makes the pool of available raiders very small on Outland.

As quoted by wallstrom2

We already have enough people for mythic raids don't we? Imagine if we removed the sunday raid wich almost forces people to come to the raid atm since of DKP cause otherwise you'll have a way lower chance of getting mythic gear.

We used to raid 7 days a week, we reduced to 5, then down to 3, then up to 4. When we recruit we ask for 4 days 100% attendance, not 2 or 3. So it stays on 4. We have found this by trial and error. There are alot of guilds who raid 1 day a week, 2 days a week, 3 days a week and so on. We raid 4 days a week.

As quoted by wallstrom2
And to add one last thing on what you said with the DKP system about people taking minor upgrades even though it would benefit way more to someone else and the whole raiding team for that matter. You said you didn't know how to solve this issue. Pretty simple in my mind if every raider would make a BiS list for their class they wouldn't be able to take those items of someone else that it's BiS for.

I mean ofcourse a solution for it within using the DKP system.
                        

As quoted by Storme
I dont have the exact data, but the only time I was not present for progression (mythic) was one thursday. The only time I am not present is sundays (HC boost runs) to spend time with my girlfriend. So I dont understand what you mean by me not having "not 100% attendance".

And the DKP system allows you to do this. Rather than forcing you to come heroic without getting shit, you will (if you come) get DKP to use for mythic gear. If you rather do something else than DKP it is totally fine! Atleast the people who DO chooses to spend their time in heroic do get something for it. Are you saying your time is worth more than others?
                        

Well Quh as I said if we would remove the sunday as we might be able to, since I think a lot of people would be more flexible to join 3 days of raiding instead of 4, and since the sunday is the raid where you atm get the most dkp I think people feel kinda forced to join that raid. I myself do feel forced at least. I dont know this for sure ofcourse, if the sunday raid would make people available to maintain a better attendancey, but it might.....
                        

I don't mind having less DKP if I am allowed to spend sunday nights not raiding. as long as gear doent go to people that dont progress with us in mythic (not me, I don't really care if I get gear or not).