<Why must i cry>

I edited this entire post as I could rephrase it to answer Quh.

So the problem with stopping the HC runs / making them far way less important is that we will get fewer geared people outside of our core group that right now is of 22+ active people. 
I do understand the problem in this but it doesn't change my opinion, because as I said in my previous post I would like the people that are interested in getting a mythic spot with us to take some of their personal time to get ready for mythic instead of relying on the sunday raids where they basically get boosted. 
This means that the requirement to get a spot in mythic non progress bosses making a core raider stay out to gear this person up they must have put some dedication in getting this spot. With the dedication means that they have taken their time to gear through the 3 lower brackets in HFC and also read up on the Mythic tactics. If they have not taken this time and dedication I do not believe they deserve a spot in our Mythic runs. This is to see who actually wants to raid with us and wipe in hell, because these are the people who will take their time to get ready for mythic. We don't want someone who has gotten HC gear casually from our sunday raids and then takes this free chance to get boosted in old Mythic bosses without having any clue what he / she is doing. 

Added to this I understand that some nights, maybe 2-3 each month we will be 19 or less guildies ready for Mythic. In this case we usually bring the best of the non ready people, but these people make us suffer, I know from personal experience and talking to others that these nights where we have a pain on old bosses just makes us lose motivation, so I don't see a reason in running these nights and think that these nights should be cancelled instead of carrying on. I do believe we have enough core raiders atm and by making it harder for people to get a spot in Mythic I think we might get those actual reserves we need, the ones who can do something useful in Mythic with us because they have worked for their spot instead of just joining casually when they feel like. 

However when we have more than 20 people that are ready for mythic (know tactics and have done their best to be as close to full gear as possible) and are not on a progression boss we will have to make people stay out, and I know that there is always enough people who can think of staying out if it's not a high tier boss so the problem of gearing new people should not exist in this case. The main thing is that the new people we will bring in will actually be people who have put some work into get their spot which shows they actually are motivated to raid and wipe with us.

Hope this answers to the questions else make me know, keep on discussing peeps!
                        

Well I've been reading all of your opinions my fellow guild members :D. 

I've really come to understand that changing the whole loot system at the current state of the guild might not be the wisest, but we could defenitly improve the DKP system. 
As burns stated about the sunday raids removing DKP from that and only rewarding DKP in mythic would probably make raiders more motivated to join Mythic runs. If we could also add a BiS list to the DKP that would also solve the problems, like when people manage to ''steal'' an item even though it's only an upgrade for them just because they had a ton of DKP.
If we started following a BiS list would also make the loot system reward the right owners of the items instead of handing them to people that they're not BiS for.

DKP really has some good features and I think we could improve this loot system a lot.
                        

As quoted by Qben
As quoted by SchnukumzI do like burns ideas, but if your taking DKP away from heroic runs, then can we add it to progression runs too or something? Wiping for 3 hours for 40dkp is just.... meh. I mean its not bad atm cause we can still get dkp from heroic, which is I guess the point why people wanna change it.

I do not like this loot driven raiding mentality. I prefer if the fun will be wiping on a boss learning the hard way where you get the feeling of accomplishment in the end when you kill it for the first time. If you just want loot, just buy tokens, sell, and buy loot on AH. I wish wow had no loot in raiding, gearing could have been left outside to do before joining raids, in fungeons for example.

Yeah I know raiding is fun progression and the first ill etc, allI was saying is if your gonna take DKP away from heroic (as suggested by burns), I myself and I assume a lot of other people will never go to heroic again. just being honest about opinions :P

Amagad you used the word fungeons! \o/
                        

Let's begin with making the assumption that everyone wants to progress and get Cutting Edge as their main goal of mythic raiding, not get their own ilvl as high as possible, at least for starters.

Okay after that has been assumed, what do we need to progress in mythic?
We need 20 people to attend every raid with an appropriate ilvl. 

That is the one thing that we NEED, and tbh I can't remember a single raid for the last one and a half month where we didn't have that, plus 2-4 people staying out, between at least 6 unique persons! 

So we can conclude that we got a raid team of 25ish people, and we need 20 per raid. When we have a couple of people who have to stay out for mythic every time, Those people who have to stay out will quit and won't want to attend raids after some time. Why should we gear more people through heroic then? While we get one more reserve for mythic, one of our current reserves will leave. 

And to add onto that, we're practically at the point where we can boost someone of decent gear through at least the 5 first bosses of mythic, and probably through gore iskar and soc in one or two weeks. We don't need heroic anymore, at least for our mythic prog. If we for some reason would lose some raiders, we will have to evaluate if we need it again. That's my opinion regarding our raid team and running heroic.

Loot:

We already know the downsides and upsides of both systems from previous posts, so I'll just add my two cents.

We are at the end of this expansions raiding content. We have progressed many bosses together, some were hard, and some were not so hard. Now we have gotten to the point where we need to optimize our performance to keep progressing. 

Since we assumed our main goal is progress and not ilvls, and that we have a stable raid team, to further our goal the most the raider who an item is the biggest upgrade for should receive the item. There's no reason as to why someone should receive a mythic trink with a socket instead of the same mythic trink they already have. That would be a marginal dps win like 500 dps, while we might have another person who only has the normal version of the trink, who would gain a 5k dps boost from that trink. Is it in the guilds best interest to gain a tenth of the total dps we could gain, just because one person could attend more heroic runs? Personally I think that's plain out wrong.(Disclaimer: Getting loot should also be partially based on attendance, eg: just because Hellrender is the biggest upgrade for deathghoul doesn't mean that he should get it over quintozz, if quintozz attends 75% raids and deathghoul about 25%. This is an evaluation that will be made from situation to situation if such a problem arises.)

The problem with a loot council is if it would be biased, and give out gear to the wrong person cause they like them better. But tbh, I can't see how this would in any way happen. We're all adults, we should be able to be objective about loot distribution if we're in the council. I know a lot of people could be completely neutral in the council, so there won't be a problem assembling one.

TL;DR: We have no need for heroic anymore and should stop doing it, for now at least. Loot council will make it a ton easier for us to get Cutting Edge. Objectivity won't be an issue since I know we are many people who only want what's best for the guilds progress.


Best regards
Juhx
                        

As quoted by Noctevenator
Let's begin with making the assumption that everyone wants to progress and get Cutting Edge as their main goal of mythic raiding, not get their own ilvl as high as possible, at least for starters.
It is not about what players want, it is what the guild wants. The guild is "hiring" raiders to perform a job to achieve a certain goal. It has always been, and will always be, to progress end game raiding. The guild cannot make exceptions to satisfy random personal agendas.

As quoted by Noctevenator
That is the one thing that we NEED, and tbh I can't remember a single raid for the last one and a half month where we didn't have that, plus 2-4 people staying out, between at least 6 unique persons!
This is very ignorant of you to not see the majority of the raiders in our team have come through recruiting and continous integration. We have for sure not had the same 20 raiders for even the last month and even less this lone tier. Looking back a year we have like 2 players still here. This is how wow works, raiders come and go. If you really believe that nobody in the team from last monday wont quit the game, leave the guild, miss raids for whatever reason - then you are very naive.

As quoted by Noctevenator
So we can conclude that we got a raid team of 25ish people, and we need 20 per raid. When we have a couple of people who have to stay out for mythic every time, Those people who have to stay out will quit and won't want to attend raids after some time. Why should we gear more people through heroic then? While we get one more reserve for mythic, one of our current reserves will leave.
This is what i do not like but what we will need to put in practice. Since we cannot have 20 players making 100% guaranteed attendance (illness etc), then we need a rotating roster. If we want to keep a pool of 25 raiders we'd need to have batches of 5 staying out every week. Since we won't do Heroic anymore we'll need to keep them in the team in mythic and treat them as equals. This means every raider will stay out for a full week every 4th-6th week: 5*5 = 25 (and then taken into the variation of players quitting, new raiders etc.

As quoted by Noctevenator
The problem with a loot council is if it would be biased, and give out gear to the wrong person cause they like them better. But tbh, I can't see how this would in any way happen. We're all adults, we should be able to be objective about loot distribution if we're in the council. I know a lot of people could be completely neutral in the council, so there won't be a problem assembling one.
But we are not all adults. There are alot of youthful lack of patience, quick judging and/or unnecessary arguing. I just cannot see how loot council would work in practice, even though it sounds good in theory.
                        

I don't feel like our opinions are being viewed with respect to be completely honest... Calling someone ignorant for sharing their opinion on a matter is plain disrespectful I feel, especially comming from someone in a position of power. It does not invite for an open dialogue, it makes people afraid of speaking their mind. That in itself is confusing since you constantly invite us to write on the forums.

Besides, 1: Immature people would not be elected to be in charge of the loot council. The people in the council would be elected democratically by the peers (for example by people in the core raid team).
2: Who is so immature to not want the best for the raid team? I cannot identify a single individual in our current state.
                        

^ 2) Swapblaster.
                        

As quoted by Storme
I don't feel like our opinions are being viewed with respect to be completely honest... Calling someone ignorant for sharing their opinion on a matter is plain disrespectful I feel, especially comming from someone in a position of power. It does not invite for an open dialogue, it makes people afraid of speaking their mind. That in itself is confusing since you constantly invite us to write on the forums.
All opinions are taken into consideration and some i personally agree with. However, this is not the place to take decicions. I do not want to decide myself but rather in officer meeting, such is the convetion. About calling Juhx ignorant; if i weren't perfectly clear (which i still think i was) then i want to emphasize that i meant specifically that he think we will have the exact same 20-man raiding roster forever, that he have not seen the team change all the time even in a 30 day period of measure.

As quoted by Storme
Besides, 1: Immature people would not be elected to be in charge of the loot council. The people in the council would be elected democratically by the peers (for example by people in the core raid team).
2: Who is so immature to not want the best for the raid team? I cannot identify a single individual in our current state.
Alot of raiders are immature by definition, in the sense that lacks rational thinking, higher degree of emotionlessness, impulsiveness, aggressiveness, etc. This is basic biology, physiology and psychology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturity_%28psychological%29). It's not an insult, but rather something to account for when selecting systems and procedures. If you want specific examples: it is never, for no one, acceptable to yell at you if you would fail a tanking assignment while learning the fight and it is not ok to be biased while dividing loot.
                        

Calling someone ignorant is a personal insult, why do you try to justify it by saying he's wrong? It doesn't matter if he's wrong or right. As the guild master you are obligated to view every members view with the same respect as everyone else on the team, not to redicule them by calling them ignorant and thereby insulting them! It's not acceptable behaviour in my opinion and I know many others that agree!

And it's obvious you are not even comprehending my message. I said it doesn't matter if 2/20 people in our raid are immature, since the council will divide the loot, not those immature individuals. And for the "bias problem": I trust our core raid team to want the best for the group and therefore only democratically elect people fit for the job. Mabye you (Quh) dont trust our core raiders to make that apropriate decision, because that's what it feels like, calling (unidentified number of) core raiders immature and insulting them.

I see people in the current (in my opinion inappropriate) DKP-system giving loot to people that need it more even if they dont have enough DKP. Direct examples from Mythic raid 13/1-2016(wed): Quintozz gave cloak from council to Fred even though he passed on it for not participating on the boss as he should have. I passed on a cloak later on because it was only a 5 ilevel upgrade for me and it would be better suited for someone it would be a greater upgrade for. People do this with their own selfless initiative because they want the system to change, and you as a guild and raid leader need to respect that and not just keep dismissing it.

I am not saying we need to change the loot system completely, not at all. I just want you to value our opinions, because many of us feel that you are not giving us the respect we deserve as core raiders.

Please don't take this as personal criticism, but rather a plea to that you listen to our opinions and not dismiss them. Many of our core raiders are really upset and are considering leaving the guild, and that's the last thing I want. I really want us to down Archimonde Mythic to get cutting edge, and to do so you (and the officers) need to respect the opinions of the core raiders.

I have repeated myself many times in this post, I am aware of that, and I apologise to anyone suffering from my grammar errors. :D
                        

By the way, linking wikipedia as a scientific source is not a particularly strong argument. many of the sources found on that particular page are dated to the 50-s, 60-s, and 70-s (hello Freud...).
                        

To be honest, I think that the DKP system works, in heroic. Anyhow, I think that the most efficient way to progress is to have loot council/EPGP. So my idea is to have the loot council for the progression/mythics(in this case), and DKP in HC. To be fair, it's a good way to gear up other people aswell in our HC runs, but when some of them get carried through some mythics bosses and get good loot that could've gone to some core raider, I feel that there's a priority issue. If we want to progress and keep the mythic raids fun, we should definitely prioritize the attending and best players. As i said though, I think that the DKP system works in HC(in this case), since a lot of the main raiders can get better gear from mythic-bosses we're killing than the HC-bosses, and if they really need gear from the HC run, they can just join there. My opinion is that the DKP system shouldn't make the HC-run the most important raid of the week, which it is at the moment. Although it's a good way to distribute gear to the ones with worse gear, that can't join mythic runs. 

As for the next expansion, my opinion is the same. The loot council system is better for progression, eventhough we start in normals. Since it should go pretty quick to finish normal, the non-core raiders can join normal pretty quickly aswell, BUT when the mainraid has started HC. In that way, you will have to join normal runs to get normal-gear, and the loot council will prioritize the always attending people for HC-runs with the HC-gear, which will be better for ourselves. 

Btw, I think that the council won't be egoistic and all the gear themselves, since it doesn't help the raid at all. What I think though, is that some are better than others at that task, which is why we should make 1 leader/caretaker for every class and then compare with the other classes that use the same kind of gear. This way, the person who needs the gear most, will get the right gear.

EXAMPLE: Hkan as leader for druids, Rhara for mages, Quh for hunters, Börns for palas, etc. Since we all know that they're all here to progress and not to take all the gear themselves.
                        

As quoted by Storme
By the way, linking wikipedia as a scientific source is not a particularly strong argument. many of the sources found on that particular page are dated to the 50-s, 60-s, and 70-s (hello Freud...).
It will still help you get a general idea of how one sees another as immature, in a relative and subjective sense.

As quoted by Storme
Calling someone ignorant is a personal insult, why do you try to justify it by saying he's wrong? It doesn't matter if he's wrong or right. As the guild master you are obligated to view every members view with the same respect as everyone else on the team, not to redicule them by calling them ignorant and thereby insulting them! It's not acceptable behaviour in my opinion and I know many others that agree!
It is a fact that the raiders drop out from raiding with the guild. I still claim it is ignorant to not see this, and i would also say it is very naive to believe people would never miss raids or stop raiding with this guild. No matter how much you want to make me look like a bad guy for saying this i will not change my opinion about it. I also want to clarify this is not a state practicing democracy but rather more like a company (in a state that is not a democracy: wow, if that even matters).

As quoted by Storme
And it's obvious you are not even comprehending my message. I said it doesn't matter if 2/20 people in our raid are immature, since the council will divide the loot, not those immature individuals. And for the "bias problem": I trust our core raid team to want the best for the group and therefore only democratically elect people fit for the job. Mabye you (Quh) dont trust our core raiders to make that apropriate decision, because that's what it feels like, calling (unidentified number of) core raiders immature and insulting them.
Then i am very sorry about this. I have understood, from the posts in here, that loot concil works like that raiders vote on who the item would be best suited for. So you are saying that only 1 person (who i would find suitable and unbiased) would be the one to distribute loot himself with no pressure from the other raiders? Because that's a very major difference in how the loot council system would work. Though i still see other problems in this system.

As quoted by Storme
I see people in the current (in my opinion inappropriate) DKP-system giving loot to people that need it more even if they dont have enough DKP. Direct examples from Mythic raid 13/1-2016(wed): Quintozz gave cloak from council to Fred even though he passed on it for not participating on the boss as he should have. I passed on a cloak later on because it was only a 5 ilevel upgrade for me and it would be better suited for someone it would be a greater upgrade for. People do this with their own selfless initiative because they want the system to change, and you as a guild and raid leader need to respect that and not just keep dismissing it.

I am not saying we need to change the loot system completely, not at all. I just want you to value our opinions, because many of us feel that you are not giving us the respect we deserve as core raiders.
I see problems too, which you do know after reading my posts. Just becase there is a solution for the isolated problem doesn't automatically make it a good solution, especially if it opens up new problems that the substituted system was meant to fix. This is what we are discussing, and what i have asked you specifically and others generally to help suggest solutions for. Only then could we even have the possibility to switch away from the DKP system (which again i do not like for pure lood distribution, but i do like some other (imo more important) things that DKP helps solve). And again, all opinions are valued and neither discarded nor implement before we've discussed them in an officer meeting.

As quoted by Storme
Please don't take this as personal criticism, but rather a plea to that you listen to our opinions and not dismiss them. Many of our core raiders are really upset and are considering leaving the guild, and that's the last thing I want. I really want us to down Archimonde Mythic to get cutting edge, and to do so you (and the officers) need to respect the opinions of the core raiders.
When the guild has an agenda it is very important to follow this agenda, even if it changes. Our agenda has always been to progress mythic, and to be a real guild raising real raiders ourselves. On a small pve server such as Outland you would have to become a senseless idiot to keep a roster where you'd have to survive on poaching other guilds for to keep a full roster when the times are hard (ie spring, summer, mid tier etc. It saddens me to see when people are not allowing raiders learn and get into raiding, when other raiders see this as a "carry" or a "boost" i see this as a beatiful investmens. It grosses me out to see guilds with pug mentality screaming at someones first mistake or not giving someone space to learn raiding with our guild. Why would anyone waste their time sacrificing a long adventure with people you get to like (or dislike but learn to accept) in favor for an instant quick progress where you treat the raid roster as a stack where you insert raiders at the top and remove from the bottom. When you eventually achieve progress this way it's not worth shit compared to if you would not be among raiders with whom you have done this big journey together with. It is totally fine to leave the guild if this is not acceptable, because these two ideologies will forever be contradictory.
                        

As quoted by Shiftkill
To be honest, I think that the DKP system works, in heroic. Anyhow, I think that the most efficient way to progress is to have loot council/EPGP. So my idea is to have the loot council for the progression/mythics(in this case), and DKP in HC. [...]

I totally see all your pros in this and they will gladly be taken into consideration. In a utopic environment this would work perfectly. But in reality (which may change, but i'm talking about so far and right now) we need to fill up with new raiders every time someone quits. I would love to prioritize giving loot to those who have been here the longest and invested most time in the guild raids. After all these are the mvp's of the raiding team, those who come every raid doing their job contributing to consistency. But this would not be easy for those who are newer players and to me (and should be to all imo) it is less fun raiding with 17 players in mythic than having Raider X taking a 5 ilvl upgrade over Raider Y's 40 ilvl upgrade only becase Y have depleted his DKP on other loot or just joined raiding (where you said yourself it is ok to not get items in the vey start).

Some of the opinions i've heard so far is that loot should go to those who would get the biggest upgrade out of it, and at the same time that raiders getting into the team must catch up before they get any loot, or even into mythic raids. This seems, te me, very hypocritical. Either we need to help people gear who are lower, or we don't and let peple bid on whatever they want, no matter the size of the upgrade.

I want to say again that for the past 13 month's we've tried several systems to keep the machine running. It is not very easy and DKP has been the best so far with most positives and still few negatives. We  must together think of something new and better (in all aspects, looking at the guild raiding as a whole and not just isolating the loot problem) so we can try it and evaluate. If we were to attempt loot council there are still some other issues to solve.
                        

First of all, don't you understand that you insulted someone? Doesn't that mean anything to you? I'm not trying to "make you look like a bad guy" at all. I am merely saying; if you value the opinion of the raiders and want them to stay active on the forums, don't insult them under any circumstance. You don't need to change your opinion, only the way you express it (since it's insulting and hurtful). Would you in a company insult an employee for expressing a personal belief? No, you wouldn't.

Second of all, the only officer, posting something on this matter or anything else on the forum that affects the spirit of the core team or the social health of the guild, is Börns. Why is no other officer participating in the discussion? There has been more than enough time to take 15 min to write down your thoughts on this highly important matter.

If we are not to use democracy in the guild, (which I personally don't like, since we need everyone in the core team to participate to progress, not only the GM/officers,) ask the other officers to express their opinion, because I already have.
                        

However, aside from the critique I have been dishing out to you Quh, I appreciate that you seem to be visiting other options for guild loot distribution (looking into the future).

And I need to bring light to to the point that we can make our own loot council version! Wmic can design a unique loot council system that works well for us, through officer decision or democracy (I vote democracy, political jokes ftw).