<Why must i cry>

As quoted by Storme
First of all, don't you understand that you insulted someone? Doesn't that mean anything to you? I'm not trying to "make you look like a bad guy" at all. I am merely saying; if you value the opinion of the raiders and want them to stay active on the forums, don't insult them under any circumstance. You don't need to change your opinion, only the way you express it (since it's insulting and hurtful). Would you in a company insult an employee for expressing a personal belief? No, you wouldn't.

Second of all, the only officer, posting something on this matter or anything else on the forum that affects the spirit of the core team or the social health of the guild, is Börns. Why is no other officer participating in the discussion? There has been more than enough time to take 15 min to write down your thoughts on this highly important matter.

If we are not to use democracy in the guild, (which I personally don't like, since we need everyone in the core team to participate to progress, not only the GM/officers,) ask the other officers to express their opinion, because I already have.

I am trying to tell you that i had no intention to insult Juhx but rather not let him base his suggestions on a false assumption that we have always had and always will have the same 20 man raiding team, which has been mentioned several times in here, on top of the fact that he must have seen players quit the raid team himself, both officially and silently.

I too want more players to jump into this debate, officers as well.

It wouldn't be very effective to practice a democracy with such small population!:)
                        

First and foremost, thanks for all of the time you're putting into the discussion Quh and Veiola!

My main standpoint is that we should quit running heroic as in my eyes we always have 20 or more people willing to raid mythic. If we have people getting benched every night, why would we need more players?

Let's make a comparison to a football team. We got the full squad out on the field and a full bench of substitutes who gets to play every now and then. These substitutes are here cause they see the possibility of getting onto the field and playing. 

When we gear more people it's like recruiting a couple of more people just to sit on the bench. There's no way that someone who already is benched a lot wants to keep sitting on the bench and won't look for a new club if his own team recruits 3 more people, reducing his play time even further. We're essentially making our back-ups quit to gear new back-ups. We've invented an eternity machine.

We have people on the bench for now at least and we should believe in them, not make them feel neglected by replacing them. Tbh if we need new recruits we can go back to running hc for a week or two, but I think people will stick around now. If they don't stick around it's most likely to be from the unneccessary hc runs you have to do to have a chance at gear.

That being said, with removing hc runs, the problems with the loot system appears. There's no way people will be able to get loot from mythic over the people with huge mountains of dkp if we remove the hc run, which gives half of the dkp you earn each week. The only way people with low dkp would get items then is if other people decide that he/she needs the item more. (And there's the concept of loot council).

I'm not a die hard fan of any loot system, but for WMIC's progression to be as strong and fast as possible we probably have to switch loot system or have a dkp reset. Both methods are looking towards the same goal though, getting people their BiS gear to progress as fast as possible. 

Ninja edit: I have no issue with being called ignorant since I probably am a bit. But that's how I see it from my perspective.
                        

Nocte, i totally agree with you on several parts of analysis. I am glad we are discussing the more (to me atleast) important issues about keeping a full roster to not have to cancel raids (which is the worst thing ever!).

My suggestion as previously stated seem to agree with what you said now that we cannot have too many and we cannot have too few. So what do you think of keeping a 25 raider roster then, and treat all as equally important put on a rotation? I do not mean that all are equally good or even equally untouchable, only that they all have the same right to raid spots. My point is also that we cannot have players stay out of guild raiding, which is why letting them pug until they are top 20 guild raider wont work. If we are to remove HC runs, we need to keep more players in mythic raiding. So far we have basically let top 20 go mythic while others stay in HC. If there are no HC runs we'll bring them to Mythic. Then the mentality of "Carrying" people and flame them about it must stop. Instead this would be a necessary good toward having a more consistent raiding (ie not having to cancel).

Another bad side is that we will no longer be farming players in HC to see who turns out capable of running mythic. If we are to continue your football analogy we cold say that this is our youth squad to raise players ourself with good morale and loyalty. We would have to rely on recruiting only what we need, and bring them straight into the mythic team. This sounds easy but it is very hard. I am willing to give this a go to see how it works out, but that doesn't mean it will not be a guaranteed success, becase alot of times during the year it is extremely hard to find new raiders. Sometimes for periods as long as 4-6 weeks. It is just very risky. Also we did this exact thing last year, and we found these players are very likely to guild hop and leave when you wipe on gorefiend for one night. Since we started letting people get comfortable with raiding from the start in this guild, we now have a much better team.

And about DKP, how about a DKP cap then? like 1000 or something, so you cannot hoard dkp ;)

And also, i didnt mean to call YOU ignorant, because i know from all raiding we have done that you are not at all, rather very aware and observant. I only meant that what you said about that we have a stable roster is ignorant :)
                        

I just wanna add quick, that as we saw last raid, we do have 25 consistent people so as of now we have that 25 man roster we want, therefore we are ready to stop HC raiding imo. And if we would lose some raiders we could always put in a HC run to gear new people up quickly again as Nocte suggested. 

This, though, hasn't solved the main matter which began the discussion, the loot system. We should now try and find a way to improve our current loot system. I think, from what people have suggested in previous posts, that we should either optimize our DKP system for our current state with end Mythic progression, or completely change it over to a better suited loot system.

I still believe that a form of Loot Council would suit us best, we will have to decide the rules of how we will work with it before implementing it though. I think this remains the best of the options so far , but I'd like everyone sharing their ideas of improved loot system so we can solve this problem asap!
                        

All BiS for paladin's go to me.